Archpriest Darko Đogo, Doctor of Theology, Professor at the Orthodox Theological Faculty of St. Basil of Ostrog (University of East Sarajevo, Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbian Orthodox Church), talks with Moscow seminarians about Serbian Church life, the Church in North Macedonia, Russian-Serbian relations, the New Testament, and more.
***
Archpriest Darko Đogo: Good morning, everyone. Thank you all very much for the opportunity to speak with you today. I won’t be giving you a lecture today, let’s just have a little conversation. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.
I am fory years old. I was born in 1983 in the city of Sarajevo, on the territory of the former Yugoslavia. As you probably already know, we had a war. And now Yugoslavia no longer exists. Serbs mostly live in Serbia and in the Republika Srpska. This, like Montenegro, is a separate state. The state where we live is called Bosnia and Herzegovina, and within it is our Republika Srpska, a special part of Bosnia and Herzegovina where mostly Serbs reside. And, of course, we are proud that after this war we received, in a sense, the status of our own “independent” state.
I live in a small town called Foča, where our theological faculty is located. If we compare our theological faculty with educational institutions in the Russian educational system and the system of spiritual education in the Russian Orthodox Church, I would say it most closely resembles the theological faculty of St. Tikhon’s University [in Moscow]. At the same time, since our faculty is theological, it has canonical ties with the Church, while simultaneously being part of a state university. So, we are one of the educational institutions of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Besides our theological faculty, the Serbian Church also has a theological faculty at the University of Belgrade, and there is also a faculty in the USA at the St. Sava Monastery in Libertyville, near Chicago. So, in the system of theological faculties of the Serbian Orthodox Church, there are only three higher educational institutions. Our existence within a state university imposes certain requirements: To become a teacher or professor, we have to go through a certification process in accordance with the laws of Republika Srpska.
If we turn to history, it should be mentioned that during the Austro-Hungarian occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there was a theological seminary in our city of Sarajevo, which, by the way, was attended by Serbian Patriarch Pavle. However, with the onset of World War II, the Croatian fascists, known as the Ustasha, closed this seminary; and then came the communist era, which prevented the revival of the former seminary. The building it used to occupy now houses the Economics Faculty of the University, which is fully controlled by Muslim authorities. So, we were never given that building back.
Therefore, since 1994, our theological faculty has been located in a small town, about two hours’ drive from Sarajevo. Currently, we have around 200 students, which is quite a significant number for our scale. However, we have very few teachers, only sixteen people in total. Most of our students are being prepared to become priests. By the way, we have a state program on the subject of “God’s Law” (Religious Education), which is mandatory for students in all grades of public schools. So, if you are Orthodox, you attend “Religious Education” classes just as you would math or geography classes.
The usual practice is as follows: when students graduate from our faculty, they return to their diocese. The bishop assigns them to the position of a “Religious Education” teacher. If a young man wants to become a parish priest later, he must work as a teacher of “God’s Law” for several years. After ordination, priests are then sent to their parishes, but there are also those who spend their entire lives working only in schools.
We also accept female students because, after graduating from the theological faculty, women primarily work as religious education teachers. It must be said that, as educators, women generally have higher professional qualities than young men.
Third-year undergraduate student Mikhail Metelkin: Relatively recently, the Macedonian schism was healed. I have always been curious about how liturgical life began to be restored in practice. What are inter-church relations like?
Archpriest Darko Đogo: I will speak honestly and openly. Currently, the Macedonian Orthodox Church has practically received a tomos of autocephaly. We will see what happens next. Unfortunately, not only in Turkey but also in Macedonia, there are supporters of the approach that only the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople can grant a tomos of autocephaly. There is also the factor that the Greek Church (the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople) has had a considerable influence on forming certain views on ecclesiastical and historical issues. They sent their candidates for ordination to study in the West. For decades, the Greek Church has been saying that there is no Macedonia or Macedonian people, that the Macedonian people are simply Slavs from an ancient Greek region. Of course, there is some historical truth to this, but behind it lies the denial of the existence of the Macedonian people and Church. Moreover, Macedonian candidates studying in Athens and other Greek monasteries learned Byzantine chanting, becoming accustomed to a different tradition. So, we will see what happens next. The Macedonian Church received a tomos of autocephaly from the Serbian Orthodox Church. From the perspective of Archbishop Stefan (of Macedonia and Ohrid) and those of the “old” approach, this is the path by which the Macedonian Church (the Archbishopric of Ohrid) departed and returned to the Serbian Orthodox Church.
In general, their church life is the same as ours. There are parishes and monastic communities where a well-structured and harmonious liturgical life exists. How does it differ from the Russian Orthodox Church? Until the 1970s, we had a unique liturgical and musical practice that was different from what you have here, but still commonly accepted in the Balkans, among Serbs, and also in Macedonia. After that, when our clergy—truly remarkable men—began returning from Greece, from Thessaloniki, from Athens, they mostly brought back the Byzantine chant we mentioned earlier and the liturgical practices of the Greek Church, which were considered ancient for a long time. So, even today, in parish life, people notice different approaches to Communion, how to sing, how to serve. You’ve probably read Ways of Russian Theology by Father Georges Florovsky and know his perspective. In my view, these topics no longer provoke as many conflicts or such heated debates as they did in past decades.
In the Serbian Orthodox Church, we have other problems. The most important for us, as Serbs, is that Kosovo and Metohija are currently under a real occupation by foreign forces. But, you know, under pressure, people sometimes become better than they were before. We’ll see what happens next. We pray to God that this pressure we live under is now leading us to return to God, rather than to corruption and fragmentation in society.
Hieromonk Ignatius (Shestakov): What do the Serbian Church, the Serbian people, expect from the Russian Church? There must be some expectation because, historically, if we look at the last 300–400 years, the Russian Church has acted as a kind of protector of Serbia and the Serbian Church. The Serbs existed under the Ottoman Empire and were deprived of many opportunities; they couldn’t even establish their own theological schools, for example. For a long time, there has been a certain expectation among the Serbian people regarding the Russian Church and Russia in general. Perhaps you could share something that you find particularly interesting and useful for the Serbian Church in the practices of the Russian Church—not necessarily liturgical, but maybe administrative or educational—that would be important for future pastors and teachers—because we love the Serbs. They are now our closest people, the largest Slavic canonical Church. Additionally, geographically, they are very important to us from a strategic point of view, especially now, when there is such a schism in Orthodoxy. But Russians don’t always understand what the Serbs want from them...
Archpriest Darko Đogo: That’s an interesting, excellent question. First of all, Serbs want attention and love from Russia, of course. The Western world, the collective West (Americans, Germans) sees the Serbs as a kind of Russian division lost in the Balkans. They even call us “little Russians” in the Balkans. In material terms, we have everything; but still... There is a phenomenon called “cultural asymmetry”. What is it? It is when something happens in Russia or with Russia, it almost immediately grabs attention in Serbia and among Serbs. But this doesn’t mean that what happens in Serbia is immediately noticed here in Russia. When we talk about brothers, yes, there is a big brother and a little brother, but brothers are still brothers, and they are equal in honor. We Serbs need to work to ensure that this “cultural asymmetry” is not so significant, and that people in Russia become familiar with Serbia, the Serbian people, and Serbian liturgical life.
What I like about the Russian Church is a certain systematic orderliness, which we have somewhat lost. It existed before, but in the 1990s, everyone had to serve in their own way, adopting their own parish practices. I’m not saying that the Church should operate like the military, where everyone follows liturgical orders like military commands. However, the current situation in our Church, where everyone adopts different traditions (from Greece, Russia, Romania) and immediately implements them in their own monastery or parish, often causes too much confusion among ordinary parishioners. Some rules should still be in place. Everyone should function within a certain administrative, theological, and liturgical system that doesn’t allow for too much diversity.
Of course, I think we need to reflect on our liturgical language. You know, this happened somewhat spontaneously for us. In the nineteenth century, our Church resisted reforms to the literary language, where it was established as a rule that the people’s language should be the standard: How people spoke in the villages became the way even the most educated people wrote. This led to a situation where, in our current liturgical practice, the litanies, Gospel readings, and main prayers are in Serbian, while Church hymns (troparia, kontakia) are sung in Church Slavonic (partly due to the phonological peculiarity of the Serbian literary language, which makes some liturgical texts impossible to chant). In my view, the problem with using Church Slavonic is not that people are unfamiliar with it, but that our approach to the issue of language has significantly changed in the twentieth-twenty-first centuries. We are no longer making efforts to teach people Church Slavonic. Why, friends? It seems like a philosophical issue, but it’s not. For the first time in human history, a person in the twenty-first century is more interested in his contemporaries, people living in the same time as he even if they are far away in China, than in his ancestors who lived a century ago. Why do people study English? Because they can speak to anyone they want in it. But if you studied Church Slavonic instead of a foreign language, you would then be able to understand your ancestors who worshiped in that same language. And if we approach this problem, we shouldn’t just focus on the current state of affairs but also teach people so that they understand the ancient language—the liturgical language. However, if—and I stress, if—something needs to be changed, then, in my opinion, the Russian Church, the Serbian Church, the Bulgarian Church—all the Churches serving in Church Slavonic—should work together to find a solution on where and in what cases changes should be made, if necessary, to the Church Slavonic text. But to completely abandon Church Slavonic, in my opinion, is impossible and unacceptable. It seems to me that in our Church, there is too much spontaneity in our approach to this issue. There is no consideration of the long-term consequences. When I was studying, every student had to know and freely use Church Slavonic during liturgical services. Now, students graduate (and we do have classes on Church Slavonic), but they do not know the language as deeply as we did twenty years ago. You can learn the rules for reading, but there is less understanding of the language and how to work with it compared to before. This is also one of the problems we face, and the Russian Church can help us by sending “signals” to the Serbian Orthodox Church that the issue of Church Slavonic is still important to you, and then it will be important for us as well.
Hieromonk Ignatius (Shestakov): In the Serbian Church, starting around the 1990s, there was a very active focus on missionary work and the revival of the Church. However, there were also strong influences, including from Greece. As a result, there is significant diversity and “variety” in church life. This had a positive effect, because with this freedom, for example, liturgical life became more vibrant, and people began to take Communion more frequently. But there is one aspect that’s still hard to fully understand. The Serbs are a conservative people in the sense that, thanks to their stubbornness and conservatism, they preserved their faith for 500 years under Turkish rule. Yet this stubbornness sometimes plays a negative role. For example, in the Russian Church, especially in Moscow, there are many Divine Liturgies celebrated every day, particularly in the cities. In the Serbian Church, however, for some reason, there are relatively few Liturgies celebrated.
And another example, which relates to something that could be shared: At Sretensky Monastery, we introduced a wonderful tradition that has become popular in the Russian Church over the past twenty years or so, but didn’t exist before. This is the celebration of the night Divine Liturgy on New Year’s Eve, from December 31 to January 1. It was interesting because, for about ten years, we were the only ones doing it, and then, in one year, around ten more churches in Moscow adopted the practice. It spread to other parishes, and now, I think, around thirty bishops firmly consider it their duty to serve on this day. This tradition has also taken root in many monasteries, showing how wonderful a liturgical practice it is.
Serbs have a special love for the Serbian New Year. It’s a religious-national holiday, a celebration of both religious and national identity. They call the Old New Year the “Serbian New Year,” and there is a lot of Orthodox meaning in this celebration. After all, it’s also the feast of St. Basil the Great. However, Serbian youth celebrate it in a national spirit, and the Church doesn’t offer them an alternative, such as serving a night Liturgy. This is indeed a mystery, and it’s hard to understand how this can be changed.
Archpriest Darko Đogo: Excellent question. For 500 years, we had very few monasteries and churches; we maintained both our national and religious identity, but it was never so closely tied to the Liturgy. People know about our custom called “Slava.” This is the feast day of the saint celebrated by a family. For me, it’s St. John the Baptist. On this feast, the host and his closest family bring bread, which is like a household Liturgy. As you said, we are quite stubborn, and in that sense, it’s not easy to change Serbs. There’s a particular approach among Serbs: If something is commanded, it won’t happen.
Regarding New Year’s, yes, we’ve started to hold prayer services (molebens) for the New Year, a practice that began in the last two decades. But the Liturgy isn’t served at night; instead, it’s served in the morning for the feast of St. Basil. To be honest, I didn’t even know you serve Liturgy on that day. We have night Liturgies on Christmas and Pascha.
Another reason: in large cities, priests face practical problems, such as traveling across Belgrade, having to take their children somewhere, or attending to other responsibilities. Although, of course, if a parish has twenty priests, it’s practically possible to organize daily Liturgies. You’re right that big cities need this, but for practical and ideological reasons, it hasn’t been realized yet.
In the Republika Srpska, we are under constant pressure from the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Unfortunately, they sometimes pursue policies that aim to make us give up our Orthodox Serbian identity. A major problem is that many people from Serbia, Republika Srpska, and Montenegro are emigrating to Germany and other countries. Educated people are leaving for work abroad, which creates another challenge: how to maintain liturgical life for all the Serbs now living in the Netherlands, Germany, America, and Canada. As the Russian saying goes, “Trust in God, but don’t slack off.” We are working as much as we can.
Hieromonk Ignatius (Shestakov): You teach the New Testament. How can we become people of the New Testament?
Archpriest Darko Đogo: First of all, we need to read the Holy Scripture of the New Testament. Secondly, every day, when you read the Holy Scripture, you should work to penetrate the depths of the New Testament. St. Nicholas (Velimirović) of Ohrid in his Prologue added a short reflection after the saints’ lives, which he called “contemplation” or “meditation.” Similarly, when we close our New Testament, we should take some time to reflect on what we’ve read, with prayer.
We must study the New Testament, both spiritually and academically. There is a falsehood spreading in academic circles, and it will continue to grow through popular culture, something we will face in parish life. A parishioner might come to you and ask why the Gospel of Matthew is read at the Liturgy and not the Gospel of Thomas, telling you that they’ve read the Gospel of Thomas. We must be able to explain to them that this is not an authentic Gospel, and we need to explain where the true text of Holy Scripture lies. This is not only a problem for professors to figure out—it will become an issue in your parish life as well. So, we need to work on this.
Even in Serbia, where there aren’t many sectarians, it’s known that to become a pastor in a denomination like the Adventists, one must know Greek very well to interpret the Gospel in its original language. We Orthodox need to prepare ourselves to be true priests, capable of reading the New Testament in ancient Greek.
I personally love St. John Chrysostom. One of the reasons I started studying the New Testament was my love for St. John Chrysostom. Like many Serbian theologians, I wanted to study patristics, to become a great patrologist (like Bishop Athanasius (Jevtić) was). That’s how my love for St. John Chrysostom began. When I started reading his works, I saw how carefully and attentively he approached every word of the Gospel. Sometimes he wouldn’t comment on several verses but on just a few words, or even a single word that was important to him. Practically every great church father has a commentary on the prologue of the Gospel of John. This shows that as clergy, we too should be deeply involved in studying the New Testament.
Do you have the Holy Scripture of the New Testament on your phones? That’s great. In my opinion, you should also carry a small book with the New Testament with you every day. Why? Because if you always have a prayer book and the New Testament with you, you will open them regularly. Once I was in America, and on a train I read the New Testament. An American woman came up to me and asked what I was reading. I told her it was the New Testament. She noticed that it wasn’t in English, not the King James Version. I told her it was the original Greek. She said, “Who knows what that text is...” (There are many Americans like this; they believe that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit exists only in the King James Version of the New Testament.) She started asking me questions, and we spent an hour discussing the New Testament.
It’s a tragedy if we don’t read the New Testament and treat it as the most important text, the primary “way” to the Kingdom of Heaven, which is exactly what the New Testament is. We must strive to live according to the New Testament; and in order to do that, we need to study it more deeply.
